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Help please

#1 2007-02-19 21:19:11

Tigertash
Member
Registered: 2007-02-19
Posts: 7

Help please

Hi, Im new here

So glad I have found it,

Im a student, and im attempting to make some venetian masks for a project, can anyone give me help.. They mention they are made from traditonal papier mache?

thanks so much

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#2 2007-02-19 21:51:07

newmodeller
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 240
Website

Re: Help please

Hi,

what a wonderful project.  Are you making carnivale masks, masquerade or comdedia d'elle arte characters?

It does help if the masks are a good face fit,  casting from the face with modrock (the bandage used in hospitals for casts) is the eastiest way to get an accurate face.  Cover the model's face with vaseline, the lay strips of the wet bandage over the forehead, closed eyelids, nose and cheeks,  for a full face you can either leave nose holes, or use straws for breathing with whilst the cast sets.  You will need about 3-5 layers and it takes approximately 15 mins to set.  Ease the mask off the face and allow to dry thoroughly.

Once dry clean off the vaseline and dry, then varnish with [at least] pva to keep the mould waterproof.  I would recommend that you use the outside of the mask as the mould and start to build up your layers of PM over that. 

For a character such as Punchinello I would mould the nose, eybrows etc in plasticine and then layer the PM over these.  Allow to dry and then add them to the basic mask.  The hollow form will be lighter and quicker to dry than trying to build up solid features from pulp.  I find that both using seperately cast pieces and cardboard armatures allow me to be flexible and move things around on the piece until I am happy with positioning.

A very useful tip given to me by David (dopapier) is to PM your initial structure with either 3 or so layers of paper or a thin pulp.  Once this is dry paint with a coat of PVA, this prevents the base from absorbing moisture from additional PM layers and stops warping and sagging.


If you don't want the hassle of producing a fitted face mask then I suspect that casting onto a balloon, plasticine model or a bought mask (you can get ready made bases from craft shops if you are stuck for time) will give you as effective results.

Best of luck, please post some pictures.
Charlotte


www.pawtraits.co.uk
www.puppetsndolls.etsy.com
Papiermache.co.uk gallery: Charlotte Hills

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#3 2007-02-19 21:59:48

Tigertash
Member
Registered: 2007-02-19
Posts: 7

Re: Help please

Thanks Charlotte,

thats really helpful, I intend to do a mixture of all, reason behind is it im doing an art piece about how we all wear some kind of mask in life ie, we are never ourselves. 

and once they are done they will be hanging infront of a painting, although we will have fun with taking some photos first.

How long will they need to dry etc before i paint?  reason is i intend to do 30-50 masks  :shock:

Thanks again  xxx

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#4 2007-02-19 23:05:30

CatPerson
Moderator
From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: Help please

30-50 masks? WOW!  That sounds like fun!  Also time-consuming.

First, from what I've discovered, pulp takes a lot more time to dry than strip layering.  Personally, I would make the basic mask forms with strip layering, then add details with pulp, rather than doing the whole thing with pulp.

I've found that methyl cellulose is the best adhesive, mixed to the consistency of egg white, not thick like school paste.

Having a fan blow over your masks may be the best way to dry them.  But some people have reported good results when drying smaller pieces in a regular kitchen oven at low temperatures (200F or less) with the oven door blocked open a bit to allow moisture to escape.  You just can't use an oven if you're using PVA (white) glue or a plastic form still attached or enclosed inside, due to toxic gases formed by the heated plastics.

Sue

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#5 2007-02-20 08:50:55

newmodeller
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 240
Website

Re: Help please

Re drying time, in addition to the methods suggested by Sue, I have found hanging items from my curtain poles in front of an open window (depending on the weather) with a door open to create a through draft.

If you do small numbers of layers at a time the drying time is much faster. The advantage to making so many is that you can be working on the next one whilst the previous ones are drying.  By the time you are on number 50, number 1 should dry enough to start the next stage.

I was thinking about how you plan to attach the ties.  I know from past mask making experience that if you cut holes at the edge of the mask you need to reinforce the holes substantially to stop wear and stress from the ties.  (If you can find access to a grommet gun this may be worth a try, I mean the  gun that is used in shoe making to create the metal eye holes for laces).  They often lurk in college art and design departments.

Best of luck


www.pawtraits.co.uk
www.puppetsndolls.etsy.com
Papiermache.co.uk gallery: Charlotte Hills

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#6 2007-02-20 16:28:33

Tigertash
Member
Registered: 2007-02-19
Posts: 7

Re: Help please

You must of read my mind as I have been thinking the same thing today about the ties and also how to attach feathers to  :?

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#7 2007-02-22 00:14:05

Annie
Member
Registered: 2006-10-27
Posts: 3

Re: Help please

I have a small gas heater in the bathroom with a shelf about 3 feet above it, and had great success putting my work on the shelf--it was helmet-shaped and I put it over a jar on the shelf. You might be able to rig something like that up over a heater that's already blasting away wink Just be careful not to cause a fire.

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#8 2007-02-22 07:44:19

newmodeller
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 240
Website

Re: Help please

I have found that a plastic flowerpot is quite good as a drying stand for curved objects,  the holes in the base allow air flow under as well as over the surfaces.

People visiting our house often find odd objects comandeered for PM purposes.  They find the number of disembodied limbs hanging from curtain poles very peculiar :twisted:


www.pawtraits.co.uk
www.puppetsndolls.etsy.com
Papiermache.co.uk gallery: Charlotte Hills

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#9 2007-02-22 11:01:43

Tigertash
Member
Registered: 2007-02-19
Posts: 7

Re: Help please

Hmm I have a shelf above a radiator so maybe able to use that at home, but at college not so sure will have seek out somewhere next week  big_smile

Thanks for all your help

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#10 2007-03-03 11:05:41

Tigertash
Member
Registered: 2007-02-19
Posts: 7

Re: Help please

Hi again,

Well I did a strip papier mache mask i covered it pva and its been dry about a week, I got some gesso and have just put a coat on but its all started cracking any ideas why please?

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#11 2007-03-03 14:15:40

dopapier
Moderator
From: UK
Registered: 2004-12-04
Posts: 754

Re: Help please

Was it commercial gesso or some you had made?  Could it have had too high a water content?
I suggest sanding and applying another layer until you have the surface you want.
DavidO wink


I'm a PM addict

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#12 2007-03-04 10:29:15

Tigertash
Member
Registered: 2007-02-19
Posts: 7

Re: Help please

it was brought Gesso  :?

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#13 2007-03-05 19:46:29

newmodeller
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 240
Website

Re: Help please

I don't think I can add much to David's advice on the gesso.  I know from experience the PM needs to be absolutely dry before adding the gesso layer.  That said I don't use bought gesso but mix up PVA/White Glue water and plaster of paris.  This I allow to dry for 24 hours to cure thoroughly, then I sand it down and paint before adding a layer of varnish.

I have had a thought re the eyelets for the mask ribbons:  I have recently made a puppet that need eyelets for stringing.  I used the little gizmo's that you screw into the back of picture frames for the hanging wire.  I found that with the layers of PM gesso and varnish I had enough depth for the screw to self tap.  To be on the safe side I did add some epoxy resin style glue to the hole before rescrewing in the eyelet.  You may be able to adapt this for your masks

Charlotte


www.pawtraits.co.uk
www.puppetsndolls.etsy.com
Papiermache.co.uk gallery: Charlotte Hills

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#14 2007-03-06 16:41:47

Tigertash
Member
Registered: 2007-02-19
Posts: 7

Re: Help please

thanks for the heads up on the mask ribbons,

I think I will try again this weekend with PM and then leave it for a while and try the gesso again.

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#15 2007-03-06 17:31:17

CatPerson
Moderator
From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: Help please

Make sure your project is dry, it should not feel cool to the touch.

And when you apply the gesso, apply thin coats.  Several thin coats are better than one heavy coat.

Sue

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#16 2007-03-22 07:38:19

Lengo
Member
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 2007-03-21
Posts: 153

Re: Help please

newmodeler, you're a real pip! Thanks for all insight into this! I sure learned a lot!

One question though. Where do you buy this modrock stuff? And does it come with instruction?


If you see spelling errors, it's becaue my fingers are glued to my keyboard!

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#17 2007-03-22 08:38:27

newmodeller
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 240
Website

Re: Help please

Hi and welcome,

I don't know if 'modrock' is the name you will find this under in the US.  it would be worth contacting Sue (CatPerson) to see if it is.

In the UK the cheapest place to buy it is a medical suppliers / pharmacists, although I haven't bought any for sometime now.  You can also buy it in hobby and craft shops here but it is much more expensive.

I would start at your local chemist, or contact the local ER department admin and ask if they can help.  Alternatively you may be able to buy it over the net.

Best of luck.
Charlotte (Newmodeller).


www.pawtraits.co.uk
www.puppetsndolls.etsy.com
Papiermache.co.uk gallery: Charlotte Hills

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#18 2007-03-22 09:43:09

dopapier
Moderator
From: UK
Registered: 2004-12-04
Posts: 754

Re: Help please

Perhaps you've finished all the masks??
If not, you might like to make some more moulds.  Here is a possible method that David Svoboda introduced some of us to.  Make some pastry (uncooked!).   Lay it over a willing person's face, pressing it into the contours (and leaving breathing space ha ha).
Over that lay Modrock (or strips of cloth dipped in plaster of paris - you have to work fast).  The plaster dries quickly and the cast will just drop off the face when the person faces downwards.
If you want to use the cast more than once it would probably be sensible to cast plaster of paris into it and then use the positive mould.

To speed the production, press two layers of aluminium foil closely over the mould, apply two layers of paper.  You should then be able to lift it carefully to dry while you get on with the next.  When you apply more layers, it would be sensible to put it back on the mould for firmness.
Let us know what you finally find works best . . . please . . .
DavidO


I'm a PM addict

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#19 2007-03-22 18:50:34

Lengo
Member
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 2007-03-21
Posts: 153

Re: Help please

Hi and welcome,

I don't know if 'modrock' is the name you will find this under in the US.  it would be worth contacting Sue (CatPerson) to see if it is.

.....

Thanks! I gotta see my docotr today. I'll ask him what this is called. I'm thinking this might be good for armature too. Is it?


If you see spelling errors, it's becaue my fingers are glued to my keyboard!

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#20 2007-03-22 23:21:12

newmodeller
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 240
Website

Re: Help please

It could well work to strengthen armature, but I would be wary about using it on it's own. 

Essentially the stuff is a very loose weave bandage, approx a hand span in width, impregnated with plaster of paris.  You soak in water, squeeze out the excess and then apply.  You spread the Plaster of Paris about and through the weave with your hands when applying.  If you have ever had a cast for a broken limb then you may remember what the nurse does when setting the cast.

However the idea of using it in place of masking tape to form a rigid structure is a good one.  It wouldn't work as an instant shape former as it takes at least 10-15 minutes to harden sufficiently to move the form.

Ummmm! you have given me some food for thought.


www.pawtraits.co.uk
www.puppetsndolls.etsy.com
Papiermache.co.uk gallery: Charlotte Hills

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#21 2007-03-23 02:36:26

Lengo
Member
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 2007-03-21
Posts: 153

Re: Help please



......

Ummmm! you have given me some food for thought.

Good! Thinking feels good, and has very few calories!  big_smile

I get the picture. Thanks. But I have one thought... using it to strengthen a balloon shape that must be used as structure. Hmmm.  You can even make modern sculptur out of that (holes in the middle). Then you make a space man underneath..... with a ray gun. He looks a little like Marvin the Martian.  Then you add a flying saucer off to the side, above. Throw in some blinking LEDS and ..... and .....  a brontosaurs. Yeah, that's it!  big_smile

Nope! Never had a broken bone. I've had a broken heart, though!


If you see spelling errors, it's becaue my fingers are glued to my keyboard!

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#22 2007-03-23 05:06:14

CatPerson
Moderator
From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: Help please

In the U.S. it's called Plaster Bandage.  You can usually buy it from local medical supply stores. Otherwise, ask your veterinarian. Mine will get it for me.

You can use it as an armature, but it's not tremedously strong, and it probably won't take certain kinds of stresses.  But for some things it's great.

If you intend to put PM over it when it's dry/cured, you'll have to waterproof it first.  Regular acrylic paint will do fine, but you've got to cover EVERY hole and crack. But make sure it is fully cured/dry before you paint it.

Sue

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