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Yes MC seems to be easier to get than CMC although CMC can be bought in large (ie tons) amounts from China, but still at high prices from what I have been able to figure. I still haven't bought any but did come across a recipe that has good archival quality that simply uses Silver Star brand starch powder (Packed by Ward McKenzie in Australia). I haven't tested it for adhesion but it came from a reputable book restorer in Sydney, could have been a museum site or something. ( I have looked at so many the name slips my mind now). Here it is anyway if you are interested.
Starch Paste Recipe (Archival Glue)
Put one tablespoon wheat starch (e.g. Silver Star Starch) into a small microwave-safe bowl and add 5 tablespoons distilled water. Microwave on High for 20 seconds, remove and stir thoroughly with plastic or wooden spoon. Repeat about 4 times until paste is thick and translucent (recipe based on 650W oven). Let paste stand to cool, then force it through a plastic sieve and store in a plastic container in the refrigerator. To use, dilute the paste with water. This makes a small amount for immediate use. It will keep for a few days in the fridge.
I have bought the starch which, believe it or not, is not sold at the two big supermarkets in Australia, (Coles and Wooworths)but from IGA for any Aussies reading this, which is a smaller supermarket chain. I will test it and let you know if you're interested. I might try adding a bit of PVA too. Who knows it might be a cheap alternative to MC and CMC. Of course the archival quality is not a real necessity for me, but if it has any of the other qualities of MC then it may be useful. I don't like the short shelf life but I tablespoon to 5 of water sounds economical, then it is further watered down. (Can't see it working for PM myself but we will see.)
Lesley.
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Well I have made up the starch paste (above) and put a layer of strips over a wet layer lining the bottom of a small bowl. I didn't water down the starch which resembles wallpaper paste quite thick, and slippery. It is very easy to use and with very little effort the paper smoothed down and stuck very easily. In hindsight I would use cling film next time as the separating agent, as the water in the first layer of paper sunk to the bottom of the bowl and has possibly diluted the starch glue, but we will see when it dries. I made a double batch 2tabs starch 10 of water and thickened it for 1 minute all up till it turned clear. (stirred every 10 seconds). At this stage I am very happy with it but will wait 'till it dries to see how it is and add more layers. I know I have wandered off from MC a bit but this may be a cheaper alternative and archival to boot.
Lesley.
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Lesley,
Sounds great. I love that in the question of CMC vs. MC you've opted for door #3 and found your own way that works for you. : )
And David, I agree my own experience is the guide I follow most often. Just wanted to see if I was missing something.
Spent the day in the studio. And do you believe, I'm still making pumpkins. ?! Seems that's what my family wants for Christmas this year. : )
-- b
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Hi Beth, I have been using this starch paste all day and it is great. I now know what you mean when you say MC softens the paper, as this starch glue does the same. It makes the paper sit flat on the piece below it with no raised edges and sort of takes any stiffness out of it. I like this glue, it dries quickly, (but it has been 30 degrees Celsius today) sticks well, is clean and easy to use and a little bit goes a long way AND lastly it cost me $2.80 for a 300 gram box that will make up a lot of glue. I have just tested drying a piece in the microwave and that seems to work too. I tried that with flour paste and it puffed up lol obviously I cooked it. I don't think it will be insect or vermin proof though but it may be less appealing to vermin that flour, and I will need to finish my work better. I live in a caravan with a vinyl annex so cockroaches, mice etc come and go as they wish of a night, and when it rains it gets very humid in the annex so it will be interesting to see how mould and softening go. Again I will put a few coats of varnish or some other hard protective coat on the pm instead of just thick acrylic paint. I will still be keeping an eye out for MC but it will need to be cheaper for me to buy it.
Lesley.
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Another Australian source, from Henkel, this is their headquarters in Oz, contact them for local sources.
Henkel Australia Pty. Ltd., Kilsyth
135-141 Canterbury Road
3137 Kilsyth, VIC
Australia
Phone: +61-3-9724-6444
Fax: +61-3-9728-5877
David and others like to mix MC with other things. I like it by itself. It certainly dries faster without the white glue and other additives.
MC and CMC and similar have an incredible number of variations for industry. It's hard enough to find it locally without getting crazy about tiny differences.
When we say that a little goes a long way, A LITTLE GOES A LONG WAY!
I have the Henkel brand, and add 1 tsp (U.S.) of MC to one cup of water.
If you want it thicker, just just a little more; thinner, add more water. This isn't rocket fuel, you know.
Tip: although it mixes quite well, if you mix it a day or so ahead of use and let it sit at room temperature, it seems to be smoother.
Sue
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Thanks Sue, at the moment I am really happy with plain powdered starch, It just seems to be so easy to work with and any paper you use becomes soft and pliable using starch but I will get some MC and compare. I will check out Henkel Australia too.
Lesley
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I am grateful to Sarah Preston from a major distributor of CMC products for the following information.
"CMC is easier to work and formulate with compared to traditional methyl-cellulose. It has a higher level of water-solubility achieved by the addition of carboxymethyl groups along the main cellulose chain which makes the hydration of the molecule faster and easier."
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The only problem is that unless you have industry access, where would you find it in small amounts? It's hard enough to find the plain MC.
I suspect that I'll just mix mine the day ahead for complete water absorption and call it good.
Sue
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hm ... the place where I buy MC sells a sodium carboxymethylcellulose too ... but it's a bit more expensive. I suspect the "makes the hydration of the molecule faster and easier" means that you just add any temp water to CMC, mix and you get paste.
I actually don't mind the fuss of MC, tho. I just need to mix the powder with hot water to disperse it, then add cold water to get it to gel. It feels a little like doing magic when the cloudy hot water turns to a clear gel when I add the cold. I laugh each time.
It takes less than 10 minutes all told. I put the water in containers with the ice, then put the proper measured amount of water in the microwave for 3-4 minutes until just about to boil. Then pour my water on my powder, in my final container and stir. Then add the measured amount of cold water and stir for another minute or 2. I usually let the paste continue to set for another hour or so ... but it's usable right away.
David, I wish you were in the states -- we could trade and see the differences. (How much trouble would it be to send/receive white powder to/from a foreign country?)
Sue, if you want a bit to compare, I'm happy to send a bit your way. I'm curious about how what I'm using compares to the wallpaper version since I haven't been able to locate it.
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Bmaskmaker, I have a pound of the wallpaper paste, I could trade some with you. PM me through 'Messages'. I'm in the PNW.
Sue
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Beth, I'm happy to trade, or just to send for experimental purposes. I'm expecting a new supply soon of three different CMCs and will contact you when it comes.
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I was just rereading this thread, and Peter Krantz's reply about strength (back in November), and had an additional (and quite late) thought.
What a bookbinder considers 'strength' may be related to how well an adhesive can hold something like a collection of 350 pages to the binding, rather than how well it can hold a few layers of paper together.
Personally, I like MC just mixed with water to an egg-white consistency. It's slick and easy to firm down without shifting the last layer of paper, it dries quickly, doesn't seem to re-absorb atmospheric moisture very easily, and it doesn't form a 'skin' where the outer layer dries and the inner layer may not dry so well.
OTOH, David likes to add PVA (white) glue to his MC for his PM projects, but men often feel differently about strength, thinking that if a lifesized PM penguin isn't 'strong' enough to withstand being the ball in a game of football played by a group of 136 kg men, it isn't strong enough to sit peacefully inside a sunny window.
Sue 8-)
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too damn funny.
I tend to judge strength as strong enough to hold the shape for the next step. So, strong enough to hold the shape when I cut it off the mold. Or strong enough to hold it's shape when I put a clay (mash) layer on it. etc.
But so far no penguin sports. lol.
I should be able to send samples later this week. Will pm/email when they're in the mail.
-- b
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CatPerson wrote:
.
OTOH, David likes to add PVA (white) glue to his MC for his PM projects, but men often feel differently about strength, thinking that if a lifesized PM penguin isn't 'strong' enough to withstand being the ball in a game of football played by a group of 136 kg men, it isn't strong enough to sit peacefully inside a sunny window.
Sue 8-)
LOL After having one of my pieces fly out of the back of a truck and hit the pavement at 75 MPH, I feel the same way as David. (It survived by the way)
Joey
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