There has been this 'war' between 'art' and 'craft' for a very long time.

I suspect that most of it is in people's heads, rather than in the materials used. For instance, which is art and which is craft: a well-made, beautifully finished piece from papier mache, or a poorly-made, roughly-finished piece made from gold? Ask 100 people and probably three-quarters of them would say the piece made from gold was still 'art', and the piece of PM was 'craft'.

However, if you do really nice work, with good color sense and design, you only need ONE buyer for it, not 20,000.

Regarding eBay:  what this comes down to is people looking for bargains, at the lowest possible price. There are actually people who make things, put a lot of time into them, then sell them on eBay for less than it cost them to make (including their time). This is not what you want.

You must find a place where the people who have money to spend do their shopping. These people don't buy art from eBay. And I'm not talking 'rich' people, just the people who are comfortable and would like a nice conversation piece.

Just a thought:  suppose you made PM dogs, lifesized and very realistic, small breeds like Yorkies, Poodles, Dachshunds, etc, in cute poses, weighted to give them a bit of heft.  Then suppose you took a couple of them and went to the higher-class hair salons in your town and asked if they would be interested on selling them on commission. They get 25-40% for just having them in sight of their bored customers.

This way, you're matching what you make to the people who are most likely to buy.

Christmas bazaars are popular here. They start November 1. Suppose you made up a supply of your 'PM Pooches' and sold them at this kind of venue?

Creativity doesn't end with your art, you have to sell it the same way.

Sue

Thanks Sue, I know what you mean about raising the price.  If I see something that is cheaper than I think it should be I think there has to be something wrong with it. And your point is taken with being creative in your selling as well as in your work.  Thanks, you have encouraged me to finish something and give it a go.
Lesley.

Thanks Charlotte, Yes Dianne's work certainly is what I would class as figurative art.  Thanks for directing me to this site. I would love to learn more about her technique.  I had a look at your puppets on Etsy too, they are great, and I am just about to browse your website, the owl looks very interesting so I will go and have a look .  Thanks again Charlotte.
Lesley.

Hi Shali, Thank you for your reply, your English is fine, I understand most of what you are saying. Congratulations on your cat sale and commission, I hope it is just the first of many for you.
I agree that love of your work is more important than just turning them out for monetary value, and I think this distinguishes what a true artist is.

Your statement - "I'd like to have good (higher) prices on my pieces, but depending on the public, they say: "it's made of paper. Why is it so expensive????"  shows that there is a general problem with the public's perception of this art form I think.
There is also the fact that when I look at a lot of the work, it is clear that it IS art, while other work I have seen is clearly craft.  This is only my opinion, but I wonder, is it because the medium itself is mainly recycled paper, or so the public thinks ( and free, which is even worse and not necessarily true either), and the fact that it is an art that all ages can try and possibly master at any age, that it is given a lower status.
Also Sue makes what is probably the most important point in saying that the marketing is as equally important as the work itself, especially where prices are concerned, if you don't value your work highly enough, the public won't either.  Thanks for your post Shali, this is very interesting to me.
Lesley

Thanks Moni, Please let us all know when and where we can find your website, I would love to see it.  I have sold some drawings on ebay as art but as you say everyone is looking for a bargain and I wasn't making much out of them.  Isn't it amazing that people have this thing against the worth of papier mache?  You have the right idea though to point out the creative talent that goes into the work, not to mention the time. I will keep that in mind. Thanks again Moni, keep in touch about your site.
Lesley.

There is a story about Coco Chanel when she created a headpiece using nothing but a scarf, wrapped, twisted and tied.

She was near a model who was showing off one of her headpieces and someone (man, reporter, idiot?) who scoffed at it, saying, "A price like that for just a scarf?"

Chanel looked at him, beckoned the model to come closer, reached out and pulled the headpiece off the model's head, pulled it loose so it was just a scarf again, and handed it to the person who had ridiculed her, saying, "The scarf is free".

Sue

What a great subject - and some excellent advice.

You were right on the nail in your original post, Lesley - the majority associate p-m with their schooldays.  I've no idea why so many people can't 'get' the difference between what they produced as children to what you, as an experienced artist, can do - and make the connection with the value of your inspiration, artistic interpretation and skill - when they can manage it for artists working with paint or clay (which they almost certainly also did at school). 

People seem to need the reassurance of a 'proper' gallery venue to give them confidence to buy art in an unfamiliar medium, or perhaps one that they feel isn't 'recognised' as an art form.  (Also, in a gallery they often don't realise what it's made of - once they've decided they're got to buy it, the fact it's made of recycled bank statements or whatever doesn't bother them so much!). 

I've been selling my papier mache sculptures in East Anglia (UK) for about 20 years, from small to large, and have had most success through galleries.  Over the same period I have regularly taken part in annual Open Studios but although it has led to some good commissions I've  found it almost impossible to sell anything more than the most basic pieces at the time.    I avoid anything called a 'craft fair', with a couple of very local charity exceptions run by friends;  round here they just attract people looking for cheap & cheerful, with little interest in or appreciation of quality.  "Art fairs" can be very good but you need to do your research carefully before committing, to make sure they will deliver the right audience for all that stand fee (and watch out for all the extra costs). They can be very good for making contact with other artists and makers, and exchanging information.

It does help to find the right gallery that will attract the sort of customers who will be interested in you, but there's a lot of artists out there competiting for exhibiting space and everyone's got to start somewhere!  You do have to factor in the commission which they will almost certainly charge.  Here it's somewhere around 35-50% for most decent venues, although some do charge quite a bit more, particularly for a well-known outlet or in London.  The art buying public are fairly aware of this so will expect to pay less if buying direct from the artist, although there's no reason to deduct the entire gallery cut - you are, after all, doing the work of selling.  And if someone commissions a piece, particularly if it's personalised (that includes matching the colours in their dining room curtains), then they should pay a premium for it - a) it's extra work for you accommodating their wishes and b) if they change their minds you might not be able to sell it to someone else. 

Actually, pricing is a perennial headache (I could put it more strongly!).    Particularly for p-m, where there isn't much else to compare with.  If you see any items featured in magazines, cut them out and keep them for reference.  On the whole I agree with being fairly bold with your prices, but there's  a fine line between what people are prepared to pay  and not pricing yourself out of the market altogether.  If I've done something that I really feel is the business, then I'll put a high price on it and stick to it.  It took me 3 years to sell a rhinoceros (mind you, she was over 5 foot long so she wasn't going to fit on just any old mantelpiece) but her home found her eventually.  In the meantime, she got me great publicity wherever she was exhibited.  (if anyone's interested in a 6' whale, by the way ....)

Have the courage of your convictions and do what you believe in (I'm assuming you're not trying to earn a living at this!) - compromising for commercial reasons will be unsatisfactory for you and I'm not convinced it really works in the long run.  I'm not saying you shouldn't listen to informed, constructive criticism but papier mache is such a personal form of expression that I really believe that pieces created from the heart will be the ones that people really connect with.  When that connection is made, they'll buy it - no matter what it's made of.

Thanks Antoniag for the great post. I think (judging from your post and all the others on this page) that showing your work in the right place seems to be the most important thing after pricing correctly.  Also putting your heart into the making of the piece is what it is all about in the first place, fun and enjoyable.  I am not looking to make a living out of pm, as you ask, but I have this bad habit of not finishing anything. I seem to stop when I feel the challenge has gone out of the work, mind you this is before any painting which I feel can make or break a piece.  I live in a small space and decided to find out from this forum if I was likely to be able to sell if I did finish them off, either way I need to move them on. I expect I may be baulking at painting them, even though I can paint, but I am never happy with anything I make. (ceramics, cloth dolls, collages etc).  It is clear to me now that several artists sell their work as art and that it is an accepted medium if you market and price correctly. Thanks again Antoniag.
Hi Sue, I have just looked at Gemma's work and yes it is lovely, what a pity the world has lost her.  I hope her skill did not die with her because as you say the smooth finish of the work is fantastic, similiar to the old world style of papier mache.  Thanks Sue for pointing this out to me.
Lesley.

"... I just couldn't get the 'maid' part to work and eventually admitted defeat, but she did have a cracking good tail so I kept her. "

I laughed out loud at that!  YES!  I sawed the head off a cat once, for the same reason. The head was fine, but the body was.... umm... not as good as the head.

And Lesley, an artist NEVER seems to be satisfied with their work. I think you'd best get used to it. You do the best you can on each object, and try to learn from any  deficiencies......  And I need to take my own advice.

Sue

Lesley, thank you for starting such a fruitful thread. I have SO enjoyed everyone's remarks.

Regards work habits, I also have the method of beginning a work, and moving to the next without finishing the first. PM lends itself to this method because of the need to let pieces dry before adding more layers or details. PM is also good for this because it is so amenable to reconstruction; if I run out of inspiration before a piece is complete I can always let it wait for more energy, and can cut away less successful layers. I find it stimulating to have incomplete pieces around...so much opportunity for new solutions. I have two major pieces I have been working on from more than 2 years. The smaller works I have completed inbetween have functioned as "test pots"...with them I have developed new techniques that require me to go back and change the major piece to incorporate a "better" solution. Something else that helps my process is to alternate between small and large works. It is very refreshing to be able to finish pieces, so I make smaller ones (like my tarot card boxes) as a vacation from the big, long-term pieces. Another thing that helps my process is to have a "clothes line" in my studio for storage, to hang unfinished works up safely out ofmy way, but visible as inspiration while I work on other things. So far I tend to sell (or gift) my small  "test pot" works and keep the monumental ones for myself.

Enjoying you all, Scylla Earls

Hi, I am sorry I haven't replied to you but I have been away for 3 weeks and am just trying to catch up.
Thanks Scylla your idea about the line to hang the work on is great, out of the way but in sight, and test pots are also a good idea, someone else also suggested test pieces for painting.
Butterbee, isn't it sad that we have to resort to disguising our medium in order to make it more appealing to the public, but if this is what it takes then so be it.  It is funny though that other paper arts ie paper sculpture and collage don't have to resort to this.
Anyway thanks to you all, I am going away to work for another 3 weeks so I may not reply to you immediately but I will catch up when I get back.
Thanks again.
Lesley

Hi Sue, excellent stuff.  Yes I agree, why use the words papier mache at all, when "archival paper" sounds so much more arty.  I was thinking of using the word "composition" as the media, as the paper is mixed with other materials such as fillers and glue.  It could be worded as  "Egyptian Cat God. composition, acrylic and metallic paints." and if the artist is asked what "composition " is they could emphasize the fillers more than the paper, maybe explaining it as; composition  is a mixture of several components including  fibre, whiting, archival paper and glue, or even just whiting, glue, oil of cloves and acid free paper. I looked the word composition up in the Merriam Webster dictionary and one of several meanings for composition is;  a product of mixing or combining various elements or ingredients.  Sounds good to me and it isn't dishonest to the public.  Anything that gets the public to see the work as art and not childs play is a step closer to our work being recognised for the art it is.
Anyway I won't be back for a few weeks but I hope to read more about this topic when I return. Keep on with your art and I hope you can sell it for what it is truly worth.
Lesley